Bow Wave and Wake Trouble - Assistance Request

[av8trkevin]

G'day all.

I have successfully brought a model into the game and it sails well enough (though does tend to a 'down stern' attitude when moving - another problem for me to understand and solve) but I'm not seeing a wake of bow wave.



Can someone please guide me in resolving this problem?

Thank you in adavnce.

KevinB

[Sailorjohn]

Ahoy Kevin

Saw your post on this issue over at FB. I'm using my wife's (Bev) account (I hate FB); I mentioned a few things to check.

I wonder if these warships are modeled on a different axis? To work properly in NG, the Y,0 axis should be at the bottom of the keel, centered on Z axis so that positive Z values are forward of origin, negative Z aft. If the axis orientation is correct, and you are using RW specs such as mass, draft, horsepower, etc, the ships should work in NG. Try deleting profile.DDS file from vessel folder. That forces NG to reassess inertial dynamics and creates a new profile.DDS, which places the bowsplash and determines origin of wake. If you haven't already done so, I suggest you save elements for the ship and make adjustments as necessary to force ship to correct draft, and trim.

If nothing else works, I'd be happy to see what I can do to correct problem. I'm a veteran of a quarter century of VS, and I've dome a heap of vehicle.cfg and elements for other modelers. As a retired USCG officer, I've served in many ships, commanded 3.

[av8trkevin]

John,

Thank you for your offer.

I am away for a few days more but after return, I hope we can figure out my problem, as I have many models I'd like to bring into the game.

Cheers

KevinB

[Sailorjohn]

Semper Paratus, Kevin

Ready when you are.

[av8trkevin]

G'day, John.

I'm back and have a lot of questions.

But to begin.

I am generally able to import models successfully but quickly realized I need to scale them up significantly, in order for them to appear normal in the game. But that is a relatively simple process using my software. Where I am having trouble is understanding the various cfg files and, more importantly, the correct numbers within them.

If I could make a simple list of "help needed" help, I think this is it:

- how to get bow wave and wake working?
- in cfg files, are the numbers all in metric?
- what cfg's are absolutely essential for basic operation within the game?

I hope this makes sense. I'm sure there is more to learn but as I've texted previously, the manual hasn't been helpful -- at least to me.

If it would help, perhaps we could exchange emails privately and work through some of this?

Thank you again for offer of assistance.

Kevin

[Sailorjohn]

There's a lot to process here. It's hard to diagnose the problem without either a copy of the model, or answers to my previous questions about the axis orientation. Where is Y,0 on the model? If the Y origin is not nearly amidships, and at the bottom of the keel, the vessel will not work properly in NG or VSF. If the axis orientation is not correct, do you have a modeling program enabling you to 'select all' and move the model to correct axis origin? I suspect the missing bow wave and wake is a symptom of axis misalignment, or scale issues. NG is usually pretty good at setting wave and wake.

As to your specific questions, the minimum cfg necessary to operate in NG/VSF is vehicle.cfg. Without that, neither program will recognize the model. The parameters in vehicle.cfg are metric. You need to provide Length, beam, draft, (meters), displacement (kilograms), and horsepower. If this is a model of a real ship, those parameters are readily available online via mr. Google at Wikipedia and elsewhere. If not a real ship, then use numbers from a similar size and type vessel. Cross-section area is product of beam times draft in square meters. Scale size is 1.0 by default; here you can reset size larger or smaller as appropriate. If in doubt, load model ingame, place yourself at Z, 0 origin. Move forward to bow, record Z (+). Move aft to stern, record Z (-). Add forward Z and aft Z values (ignore sign); the sum should be overall length. Compare ship to a different ingame ship of similar size and adjust your scale as necessary.

Once you have model working correctly ingame, you can adjust coefficients of friction and drag to yield correct top speed. Then you can click "Save Elements" to create the elements profile, enabling you to fine-tune model parameters in much greater detail to give proper 'feel'.

[Pascal]

Hello,

As Sailorjohn said, it's difficult to understand the problem without more informations : type of file for the original model, used software for the conversion in VFS and main handlings with it etc..

As you seem to have been "playing" a lot with the scale fonction, I'll check first in view mode if your bow wave and wake are not there in fact, but very small inside the hull : this could also explain the turn problem.

Regards

[av8trkevin]

Good morning, gentlemen and thank you for your responses.

I should admit up front that I am very new at all this and (most importantly) am not a modeler. Rather, I have collected and enjoy hundreds of model ships in various games and from numerous web sources and have just begun experimenting with extracting and importing between games. And before anyone jumps in a starts reading me the riot act, these are for my personal experiments and not for distributing to wider usage - though files from free-use sources may be shared one assumes.

I have found several challenging but useful tools which let me convert my models to match the formats required by my intended recipient game. So, for instance, I used ModelconverterX (a flightsim tool) to convert the model shown above to the required boat.x file format for VSF. After successfully bringing it into the game and scaling it a bit, I got as far as I mentioned.

Here's is the model with which I'm currently working:

https://www.mediafire.com/file_premium/ ... g.zip/file

Now, having gotten that bit out of the way, let me try to understand my next move.

John, I have been trying to understand our first response but have not found where one might locate the information you discussed:

"To work properly in NG, the Y,0 axis should be at the bottom of the keel, centered on Z axis so that positive Z values are forward of origin, negative Z aft. If the axis orientation is correct, and you are using RW specs such as mass, draft, horsepower, etc, the ships should work in NG. "

So, perhaps we can start there? How does one check this information on the model?

Small steps hopefully leading to better understanding.

Kevin

[Sailorjohn]

In game, place yourself aboard the ship (click F1). If you haven't already set coordinates for 'pilot' or 'camera', you should be at XYZ, 0 origin. Using numpad arrows, move forward to extreme bow and record your Z position. Then move back to stern and record your Z position. Add the Z values, and that tells you what NG thinks is ship length in meters. Compare that with real world length, and set scale in vehicle.cfg as needed to correct. That should put you in the ballpark for length, and that should resolve question about wave and wake. Did you see wave and wake inside the hull as you moved away from origin? Ingame you can select the 'box' and move slider as necessary to align front of 'box' with bow of ship. That should reset bow splash to bow, where wake will also originate. You may have to delete profile.dds and let NG create a new one.

As Pascal pointed out, it is almost impossible for us to remotely diagnose the problem since we know nothing about the origin and source of the model. It would be much easier to diagnose/fix if you could send a model, or at least the boat.x file. I'm not a modeler either, but I go back a quarter century using MF, VS, VSF, and VSNG...and I have done hundreds of vehicle.cfg and elements for all kinds of ships. And I have 26 years of US Coast Guard seagoing time as an officer, including three ship commands...and seven decades of pleasure boat ownership.

[Pascal]

Hello,

Sailorjohn : you have the files in the link above posted by Kevin.. I think you can help him with the vehicle.cfg as there are some errors with the ship data and the wave_scale (8).

Kevin : Model Converter X must have problems exporting the bounding box but you can try to make one in VSNG and the menu Vehicle (V) then Adjust/ Adjust Box.. it will give you a box.cfg file :



With some luck, you'll be able to see your bow wave and wake.. but as you'll see, there is another big problem because the 3d Model is not centered and set at 0.0 Origin as said Sailorjohn.. you can check that also in Model Converter X as the origin (red cross) is in fact in the front right of the model instead to be centered in the middle of the ship :



To solve that problem, I am afraid there is no other solution that to import and modify the position of the model in a 3d Software.. I really think you can't convert and export correctly any models without a minimum of adjustments in this way (here, you are lucky, the model is in the good direction), I made a quick test with my old 3ds Max 2009 and it's ok now :



You can do the same thing for instance in Blender which is free (just tested also) easy to learn and with a lot of tutorials : so, you can move easily the whole ship at the origin point 0.0.0 and you'll be even able later to separate some parts as rudders, propellers and weapons to improve the model as you wish (note that you'll have to modify your smokes.cfg).

Greetings from France.

[av8trkevin]

Pascal,

Thank you for the information. For some reason, however, your images are not displaying.

K

[av8trkevin]

Ok, so I now know how to create a view and set it. Thank you for that tidbit.

John, I don't see any coordinates on the screen when I do as you direct. Is there an option to turn that on/off?

Thank you

K

[av8trkevin]

A little more progress in another aspect of the model -- smoke.

I've figured out how to add!

[Sailorjohn]

Kevin, to see your coordinates wherever you are on the ship, click on 'views' in the drop-down Change menu. That shows your XYZ position as you move.

I did install the ship, but as Pascal points out, ship is offset from center and cannot function properly until it is moved so that Y origin is at base of keel, X origin is centered on keel, and Z origin is near amidships. It's a nice model and worth the effort BTW, scale size should be around 2.0. I did get waves...but the waves originate off the starboard bow where the X, 0 origin is located. And the ship wouldn't turn.

[av8trkevin]

Good morning, gentlemen.

I am making progress thanks to your kind support.

This morning, I took the model back inside MCX and learned how (I hope) to move the XYZ center point towards the 'center' of the ship.
I do have a question as to where the fwd/bck position should be placed, however. as the centerline position is obvious but wasn't sure if the fwd/bck should be at where one might place a bridge view, or should it be placed at the center of the entire model's length.





BTW, my proof that I must be doing it right, is my smoke effects and view are no longer correct, as they were prior to my editing.

Oh! I also checked the bounding box while in the editor and it seems correct as well.

Progressing...so what's my next step?

K

[Sailorjohn]

That's major progress, Kevin.

Make sure X,0 is centered on keel, and Y,0 is at bottom of keel. You have ship centered on waterline. It should be raised so that Y, 0 is at bottom of keel, not waterline. Pretend axis is a drydock and ship is being built from drydock upwards. Z,0 should be at or nearly amidships centered on keel. Placing Z, 0 under bridge is good in this case. In the RW, most vessels have a pivot point approximately 1/3 of the way back from the bow, which is about where bridge is located on Wyoming. However many modern vessels have bridge very far forward, in which case pivot point will be well aft of bridge. Most modelers simply center ship on XYZ, 0.

Remember, the program wants you to specify the correct draft in vehicle.cfg; it will 'sink' the ship down to the correct depth. And that will give you the most realistic inertial dynamics, especially if you create elements.

[Pascal]

Hello Everybody,

Kevin : I just discovered with your post that we can correct easily the position of the model with Model Converter X ! To do so , as you have done, I imported again your boat.x into Model Converter X and choose "Transform Object/ Move Object" then move 15 to X and 2 for Y (which is Z in VSNG..) :



The boat is now centered at least with the median axe (that was the main problem).. At the moment, I have not modified the length.. After exporting it again : I choose FSX X file and it seems to work.. for the values of the bounding box , we can notice these values with the "Object Properties" in MCX :



So you can make easily and directly a correct box.cfg file for VSNG.. I made one like this ( as noticed, Y and Z are inverted) :

-15 -10 -169
15 40 2

There are now wave and wake with a working rudder ! checking the bounding box as I explain in my precedent post (menu Vehicle (V) then Adjust/ Adjust Box).There are many errors in the vehicle.cfg and you must already modify :

1.0 [scale_factor] (instead of 0.6)
1.0 [wave_scale] (instead of 8.0)

As you have see, you must also correct the values in the smokes.cfg due to the change of position for the ship, but I see you know how to do that.. Note also that if you delete now deck.dds and profile.dds as Sailorjohn suggested, VSNG will now do correct ones.

Sailorjohn : if you want to test these tips, it is very easy to and you can download Model Converter X here :

https://www.scenerydesign.org/modelconverterx/

This is really a very good software and with Blender , we can have free tools for modeling a lot of ships !

Best regards.

[Sailorjohn]

Merci, Pascal
I did download the Model Converter X, and set out to prove to myself that I'm not too old to learn new tricks. It was pretty easy to learn with your excellent tutorial above. I was able to reset the axes on USS Wyoming after a little trial and error. Using all the actual real world specs on this ship I have her running at proper speed (20.5 KTS), 9m draft, with full elements, bow wave, and wake.

Kevin, I'd be happy to send you the working model if we can figure out how to manage the filesize. Gmail limits me to 25MB, and I don't have a website or file app.

[Pascal]

Well done John and thanks for your feedback, I thought you could do that as you used Deep Exploration in the past ! May be can you already post your config files ? We can eventually adjust them as I think we have now 3 models with different origin points..

From my side, I has continued the tests with Blender and can confirm that the combination with the Model Converter X tool is terrible : I could import the BB in Blender (exported from MCX as DAE file) and extract one pinnace for test without any problem :



That need of course to re-import the model in MCX to export it in x format as Blender unfortunately didn't export any more to X file since version 2.80 but this is not a big problem..

The only problem I noticed is that the model has whole double faces : this explains the great size of polys for the BB but can be corrected easily in Blender..

Cheers

[av8trkevin]

Good morning, gentlemen.

First off, thank you for your continued assistance.

Pascal, I still don't understand why I am unable to view your images. John, do you see them? Might it be my location?

John, as for sharing files, I can give you access to my Mediafire and you can upload/download from there as a user.

Meanwhile, I am still trying to understand things related to the model vs cfg files.

Besides the XYZ position on model, isn't everything else controlled by various cfg files in the game? I ask because I tried to add a few new models and chose cfgs from vessels close to the size I intend to import. Alas, they aren't staying upright/floating. So I'm really trying to understand things as I really wish to bring in a variety of vessels to the game.

Here are a few conversions I'd like to try currently:









Hopefully, I will be able to get these, and many more, in to the game with your help.

Thank you again.

K

[av8trkevin]

I'm especially interested in adding some lightships..

[av8trkevin]

John,

It just occurred to me to ask if it might be possible to create a 'generic' placeholder set of cfgs that would allow me to import and model (statically so to speak) so I can first get a look at the models in the game so that I can adjust size etc, and perhaps configure: views, smokes, lights etc.

Is this possible?

K

[Pascal]

Hello Kevin,

Strange that you can't see my images : I can see yours and mines ? did you test a right click on and "save as image"?

This is an interesting "School case" and I suggest that you train first from scratch with the Mini_Tug in the game : it's a basic and simple model that you can import easily into MCX (just the boat.x file).. So, you will see how a boat must be centered with the green (front Y), blue (vertical Z) and red (side X) lines in MCX : you will have to do like that after with your own models.

Export this boat.x file with MCX into a new directory that you make in VSNG/vehicles, for instance "MiniTug_Test" : you can also copy the texture (tug.jpg). With these 2 files in this directory (exported boat.x and texture), you 'll need also 2 more files to be able to load the ship and test her in VSNG :

- vehicle.cfg : that file'll allows VSNG to see and load the ship..it can be very simple, as a base with the type (boat), the main characteristics (lenght, mass) and engine as real as possible (see the post of John above) and an optional camera view if you don't want to start under water at the origin point.. for instance :

boat [type]
27.43 [boat_length]
18000 [mass]
1.00 [has_engine]
18000 [fuel_time]
4000 [motor_hp]
50 [rpm_min]
500 [rpm_max]
0.60 [prop_diam]
0.00 [camera_x]
26.14 [camera_y]
13.50 [camera_z]

As the model is in feet, I left the scale apart and it can be set later (1 by default).

- box.cfg : necessary in your case because as I pointed in my first post, it seems that MCX don't export this one correctly and this is in fact the main problem and redo the same bug as (wake and rudder) for the USS_BB_Wyoming.. As I said also above, you can check these values in MCX :

-15 -47 -13
15 47 51

But as Y and Z axes are inverted beetween MCX and VSNG you must make a box.cfg like this :

-15 -13 -47
15 51 47

At this step, your new MiniTug_Test model must floats and goes almost correctly in VSNG ! I make more tests with MCX and as it exports FSX type file, there are some other problems as swapping the individual parts if there are some but these can be made apart (as the majority of models) and this is still a very interesting free program to use.

You can add the real scale value in the vehicle.cfg ( 0.3048 [scale_factor] ), but in this case you must divide by 3 the values of the bounding box..This can be do also in MCX with the scale fonction (0.3048) before exporting the boat model.

Regards.

[Sailorjohn]

Hi Kevin and Pascal

First, yes I can see all of Pascal's posts, as well as Kevin's. And Pascal, thanks for the Pinnace...it's a great way to admire the Wyoming from the waterline.

I cloned Wyoming and renamed it "USS_Wyoming_BB32" to avoid interaction with the original model. Everything worked OK with MCX, except that I centered XYZ in MCX, but when I attempted to save elements, the Z origin was well forward of the bridge...whereas in MCX it was between the stacks. So I had to move all of the elements individually half a shiplength aft. You have to be strategic in what you move and where, to avoid having the ship crash from imbalance. Using F10 to freeze sim helps, but you don't see the effect of each move. I'll try to send my renamed version (from which I removed all the redundant extra boat files not used by NG). I have not attempted to separate parts like props and weapons. That's above my paygrade. Perhaps you could DM the Mediafire link?

As Pascal points out, you can create a very simple vehicle.cfg using real length, draft, mass, HP, etc that enables you to load ship into NG. While you can copy another similar ship's elements, that doesn't always work well. NG has excellent inertial dynamics, and rejects anything the program doesn't 'like'...and it may launch you into outer space, or capsize and sink you. I can help you with those other ships as needed and as time permits. But the end goal should be for you to become familiar with and comfortable with using real-world parameters for both vehicle.cfg and elements. My advice would be to use scale factor 1.0 based on metric measurements.

[av8trkevin]

Not seeing the images have proven a very frustrating experience. It seems that Chrome does like the web site http://chgend.free.fr/

I've been forced to use the "view source" option here on this page and then search for Pascal's pictures. Download them individually and then create a Word doc to place them in his message. The weird thing is that when I copy his message and post entire message in Word, the images appear!! Say what?!!!! sigh....

I've searched and found no way to unlock this issue here on the web. I've tried using Edge as well and it also is blocked.. argghhhh!

So now I will reread Pascal's posts in Word and see if I can follow.



K

[Pascal]

Hi,

John : happy you like the steam pinnace.. it was for fun and essentially to test the model with Blender. This could be a next step as it is very easy to isolate the different parts as props, rudders, helm and weapons and then to add them with a parts.cfg..

Kevin : happy also you can see my images, but can't understand the reason why too ?.. by the way, I didn't put any image in my last post but in fact, it is much better for seeing and understanding the ship position in Model Converter X.. so, there is one :



Important Note : the values are in metric as said John, and inverted for Y and Z axes in VSNG 's vehicle files config (if not, it 'll not be funny)..

..